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HBP speculation
Eta: This creeped me out to write, and not in a pervy way either. If you're easily disturbed, be warned: I don't think it's any worse than the lake full of dead people, but it's hardly any better either.
This has been bugging me for a while, and I kind of put off saying anything because I thought I might turn it into a well-researched essay, with, you know, quotes and page numbers and footnotes and stuff.
Ha! As if! I'm waaayy too lazy.
So here's the quick and dirty version, and if anyone else would care to come up with research and quotes and footnotes, more power to you, but I probably won't.
I've heard people (I honestly don't remember who, don't mean to offend anyone though) postulating that perhaps one reason why What Snape Did Wasn't So Bad was that Dumbledore was already dying from the Evil Potion that he drank, and was just about to Fall Down Dead Anyways, and therefore asked Snape to kill him (by means of Legilimency, because they were staring into each other's eyes at the Crucial Moment) because he was already Dying From The Irreversible Poison, so why not?
I think that this is unlikely.
Not that there was some Legilimency going on there, I think that's quite reasonable, but that the terrible substance Dumbledore drank was deadly poison. This is based on a gut feeling, but it's a damn strong gut feeling and hear me out, 'kay?
Dumbledore specifically said that he didn't think it was a poison, because Voldemort would not want whoever got that far to die, at least not in the immediate future before they could be interrogated, etc. Leaving aside the issue of how Voldemort would know there was someone there (did he have wards alerting him when someone was there, or did he check it every week like a mousetrap?) and how long they might have before he got there, it seems unlikely that he would want someone powerful enough to make it there in the first place to be under an irreversible poison, because if you are in the middle of interrogating somebody and they Suddenly Fall Down Dead before you get your answers, you are going to be one Very Unhappy Dark Lord with nobody but yourself to blame.
Also, poison seems awfully anticlimactic, and I just can't buy it (now we're back to the gut feelings) because it seems like there are so many other good candidates for what it could be, that Dumbledore would consider worse than death, and therefore have good reason to ask Snape to kill him through Legilimency. I'm not talking physical pain, either: he's already shown he can deal with his hand and consider it a small price to pay. I don't know, of course, what the potion actually was, but I have a few different speculations.
It could have been something that progressively and irreversibly saps one's will and strength of mind.
This would leave one weak and easy pickings for whenever Voldemort got around to dealing with them. We do, in fact, see something like this, when he cannot make himself continue drinking and Harry must feed the rest to him. I think Albus Dumbledore, a Gryffindor in his youth, would have considered this one the 'fates worse than death' that he has mentioned before.
We also see evidence of physical weariness, but I think it's a mistake to assume that the end result of this must be death. Perhaps the Headmaster would have merely become less and less able to move, until he eventually became completely paralyzed, unable even to communicate unless a Legilimens (like Voldemort) chose to invade his mind.
Would Albus have thought death a better fate than this? I admit I don't know for sure, but I think it's possible.
Or, to approach the matter more circuitously, most agree that Regulus is the likely candidate for RAB, and at least one discussion posited that Kreacher was the companion who drunk the potion for him. Kreacher is, when we meet him, insane. He has turned against his nature to such an extent that he does not even clean his house, he is living in filth, and he even betrays his master to his death. Not even Dobby attempts to harm his masters, only to warn others of their own danger. From what we know of house-elves, Kreacher's behavior goes so far beyond atypical, it seems his madness actively fights everything a house-elf is, by nature and by upbringing.
Sirius did say that it was Mrs. Black's death that sent Kreacher 'round the bend, but Sirius was in Azkaban at the time (wasn't he? Pfft, research) and had been kicked out of the house since sixth year, so I think it's safe to assume that Sirius was making an educated guess rather than speaking from first-hand knowledge.
Was Kreacher's madness the effect of the potion?
Would Voldemort have considered a shattered mind turning on itself, and on everything it had believed in, to be a useful outcome of the potion?
Such a mind would likely be incapable of effective Occlumency. Might even turn into the kind of minion Voldemort would find useful, in time. Certainly would never be a threat on the side of Light again. (Recall that by assisting Regulus, Kreacher was actively working against Voldemort, and I'm guessing that he did it willingly). Perhaps even Kreacher's habit of speaking his thoughts out loud can be attributed to the potion; Voldemort would probably enjoy that too.
Did Dumbledore know (or guess) that something like Kreacher's fate might be his too, because he drank the potion?
If he did, would he have chosen death over that future?
I don't pretend that I know the answers, or that the above is anything more than speculation. But it seems to me that there must have been a lot more going on with a potion like that than simple, straightforward death. Dumbledore didn't fear death. He stated, repeatedly, that there were worse things. The idea that the terrible substance was really poison -- Sorry, but I don't think that cuts it as a literary device.
Um. Or maybe it would have worn off in a week. I don't really know. And you'll notice I'm neatly skipping by the whole question of What The Hell Was Snape Thinking And How Much in Cahoots With *Insert Character Here* Was He? That's a topic for another post, I'm afraid. ;D
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Otherwise this is the most brilliant, in-Rowling-vein theory I've come across in awhile. Cheers. ^.^
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Hmm. I think I figure that Dumbledore is too strong-willed to succumb to the potion immediately. It would probably be a more long-term effect . . . Dumbledore would feel what it was trying to do to him but he would still be able to fight it, at least for a while . . .
*looks back at your question* *is a little confused* My point was that Dumbledore would choose death when presented with the choice, as it was, both to save Snape's life and because of what the potion would inevitably make of him, and Dumbledore has never been afraid of death.
The potion, I'm guessing, would be more likely to want Dumbledore to cling to life at all costs, like other 'evil' characters we know, i.e. Voldemort, whose highest goal is his own immortality, or Wormtail, who sold out his friends because "he would have killed me!"
Or am I totally misinterpreting what you said?
Anywho, thanks for your compliment *blushes* Such a nice thing to say! ^.^
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I like the theory of Kreacher being made to drink the potion. That would explain his blurting out loud.
There's another theory I've read that suggested the potion was memories, horrible memories where somebody was tortured and begged to make it stop. Dumbledore could have been acting out these memories.
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Ah, yes. *nods* I guess I can see this.
Somehow I've got so firmly into the habit of thinking that of course Snape and Dumbledore plotted the whole thing out in advance, I forget that there are other possibilities out there. *laughs* Thanks for pointing that out -- it really should have occurred to me with this subject!
Horrible memories . . . mm, intriguing. Somehow that scene reminded me of Dementor-effects -- I guessed that Dumbledore was reliving his own worst memories, or perhaps his worst nightmares. (Nightmares! There's another idea . . . ) If they were someone else's though . . . I could see that, too.
Thanks for commenting -- I love reading other thoughts!
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This potion issue has bugged me endlessly since reading the book as well. If you're interested in reading some of my random thoughts on it, they're HERE (http://www.livejournal.com/users/_grangergirl/50867.html#cutid1), along with some of my other HBP ramblings. The actual remarks about the potion that are most resembling what you're speaking of here are actually in the comments (there aren't too many to sift through, don't worry).
I like what you're saying about the potion possibly weakening a person in body and mind, making them easier prey. I completely agree with your veiws on the potion unlikely being a deadly poison. And your ideas about Kretcher's insanity are brilliant. Thanks for posting this. It's good to know I'm not the only one stuck on this plot point.
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Yes, it had been bugging me for a while, too. The implicit idea that the worst thing it could be was poison, especially when we're talking about Dumbledore, who has repeatedly stated his views on death, just makes me shake my head.
Thank you, I'm glad someone else likes my ideas! I read your link, too. I hadn't thought about the significance of what Dumbledore was actually saying very much . . . *ponders* Very interesting.
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You're right, Dumbledore didn't think it was a poison. I like your mind altering theory. Hmmm...could it have been some hallucinogenic? It seems from the words he spoke during that awful episode, that he was reliving something. Or perhaps being forced to remember some other memories. Maybe it was some of the memories of the dead people in the lake. The vessel that the liquid was in did look similar to a pensive. *shrugs*
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Yes, there's so many ideas about what it could have been! The memories of the dead people . . . memories of their deaths perhaps? Or (even creepier!) what it's like to be dead/undead/an Inferi (Inferus?)?
The potion is obviously pretty horrible, but we can only speculate about what its actual effects were . . . I was just annoyed at the idea that it was a simple poison!
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From the words Dumbledore says, the liquid seems like it is memories of their deaths. Some of the words seem like someone is trying to protect another (father/child?) perhaps from a Death Eater attack.
I agree. That was no simple potion. Hmmm...who do we know that would be capable of brewing something as awful as that? Hook nose..yellow teeth...pale Skin...nasty disposition...our favourite Potions Master?
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I must admit, I've thought the poison to be one of the mind; clearly Dumbledore was affected on another layer than simply physical death - he did recover somewhat after finishing the potion and held his own against Draco before Snape came weilding his wand.
He was definitely 'dying' in the magical sense, too, hardly able to hold the ring of fire around the boat, Harry having to Apparate them back to Hogsmeade. That all twists in, of course, with your ideas on the psychological weakening...
And Im rambling so I'll finish with, great ideas here well done. Hee :)
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Thank you very much! I'm glad you read it!
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personally my guess is that it's some variant of the Living Death Potion, but with baaad side effects.
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Living Death? As in, causes the drinker to fall into a state of unconsciousness resembling death? But then why was Dumbledore still walking and talking? *is puzzled* I'm interested, can you tell me more?
Here via the Daily Snitch
And I agree with your speculations as to what the potion may be. I don't think it's poison, and the will-sapping potion you posit makes a lot of sense. I do think though that the potion is likely one of Snape's making, and that he'd have an antidote to it.
Re: Here via the Daily Snitch
Of course, then there's the matter of did he plan it all out with Snape . . .
Yeah, I'm fond of the will-sapping idea too. *g* Snape very well could have made it, but somehow a potion like that doesn't strike me as one that could be neatly fixed with an antidote. Again, speculation, but . . . for one thing, would Voldemort protect his Horcrux with something that Snape (at least) could get through by waltzing in with the antidote in a bottle in his pocket?
Thank you for commenting, I love seeing different ideas!
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I hope you'll enjoy.